(Finally, an announcement...!) - Welly-moot #5.4 is coming soon!

Although our original plan was to have a mid-winter christmas get-together like last year, life seems to have gotten in the way, and we can't commit time. We do have a doozy of a topic for everyone though!

The discussion will be a light breezy one - nothing less than the nature of life (and death) in Middle-earth. The elves are immortal, while men are not. How does that all work? And if you thought the elves had it good, the Maiar and the Valar are even more immortal, if there is such a thing. Or are they? Melkor/Morgoth gets kicked out of the Valar - does he die? Is that even a meaningful question? And what of Saruman?

Now, I'm counting on people to do a little bit of homework on this one - check your Silmarillions and your Unfinished Tales once more. If you don't have access to those, then the Encyclopedia of Arda is a great place to start looking instead (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/).

Of course, if this is all just too heavy for you, feel free to bring your own topics!


New members are welcome as usual, and membership is free, and for life. Bring money for coffee and cake at the Embassy cafe, though.

See you in a few weeks!

  - Jack

Welly-moot #4.3 report ("Gandalf")

Welly-moot 4.3 meeting was held last Sunday, 31 May at Embassy Theatre.

We started with Jack’s greeting and updates with some projects as usual. There were some exciting updates for the members. We promise that we will post them here on the Welly-moot site as soon as we are able to announce it officially. It won’t be too long so keep your eyes out for it.


Next, we took a moment to remember Andrew Lesnie, who passed away at the end of April. As fans of Sir Peter Jackson’s movies, especially ‘Hobbit’ and ‘Lord of the Rings’, we all know of Andrew’s contribution and passion for movies. You will be remembered, Andrew.

[Picture] Andrew Lesnie (1956–2015)

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The theme of the day was “Gandalf” – What are your favourite passages in Tolkien's writings that describe Gandalf's wisdom, humour, and personality?

The most popular and famous one was this one:

“All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us”

Alex shared her memory with Ian McKellen and her story why she came to New Zealand. She is not the only one to choose this quote, some other Welly-mooters from overseas have been inspired by this phrase also, and that is why they are in Wellington now.


There are some phrases from Gandalf are applied in our world as well. The phrase which Gandalf says to Denethor, Steward Gondor, when Denethor refuses to listen to Gandalf's advice on ruling the city. Denethor says "the rule of Gondor [...] is mine and no other man’s, unless the king should come again". Gandalf responds with:

"Unless the king should come again? Well, my lord Steward, it is your task to keep some kingdom still against that event, which few now look to see. In that task you shall have all the aid that you are pleased to ask for. But I will say this: the rule of no realm is mine, neither of Gondor nor any other, great or small. But all worthy things that are in peril as the world now stands, those are my care. And for my part, I shall not wholly fail of my task, though Gondor should perish, if anything passes through this night that can still grow fair or bear fruit and flower again in days to come. For I also am a steward. Did you not know?"

Gandalf is alone amongst the five wizards (or at least amongst the three we know) that he tries to own nothing, and rule nothing, and have no house of his own. Middle-earth is his terrain, and he keeps his eye on the larger picture.


Then there's the phrase from Gandalf to Frodo:

Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."

This applies our world as well. No one has the right to make judgement for any lives to live or die.


Jack pointed a slightly different character of Gandalf in the book The Unfinished Tales. Gandalf appears to have known all along about Saruman's visits the the Shire, and about his secret addiction to the Halfling's weed. At the Great Council meeting held in 2851, Gandalf appears to have smoked for the first time in front of the council, and defended its use a a way to clear his mind. He recommends it to Saruman (actually knowing full well that he already uses it). Jack's quote isn't a quote as such, but a description of Gandalf's last response to Saruman, as the meeting come to an end:

Gandalf did not laugh again; and he did not answer, but looking keenly at Saruman he drew on his pipe and sent out a great ring of smoke with many smaller rings that followed it. Then he put up his hand, as if to grasp them, and they vanished. With that he got up and left Saruman without another word; but Saruman stood for some time silent, and his face was dark with doubt and displeasure.

Subtle as a brick, is our Gandalf.


As we all know that the common idea or image of Gandalf is ‘father’ figure. When Gandalf is saying good-bye to Hobbits, he says:

You must settle its affairs yourselves; that is what you have been trained for. My time is over: it is no longer my task to set things to rights, nor to help folk to do so. And as for you, my dear friends, you will need no help. You are grown up now. I have no longer any fear at all for any of you.

Here it goes. Not only people but Hobbits, Dwarves, and even Elves rely on him. Gandalf has such heavy responsibility (or burden) on his shoulder in the Middle Earth.


Gandalf is one of the most important and centre characters in Middle Earth. We think because of these characters we are enchanted by the stories of Tolkien’s.

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All in all, a good meeting, and a terrific discussion. We're looking forward to the next one!

Report: Welly-moot #3.2 a success.

The 22nd meeting of the Wellington Tolkien group Welly-moot #3.2 was held this weekend, in a new venue, the Roxy Cinema in Miramar. It was a very lovely place to meet.

The meeting was attended by a few more Miramar residents than usual; Annabel and her two hobbits were there, as were Sinead and Luke. The whole committee was present as well; myself and Alex, as well as Kris. Franziska was able to attend as well, although sadly her next meeting is likely to be her last one, as she will return to Germany later this year.

We also welcomed some new members into the group. From Australia, Trevor and Christine joined us from the Brisbane Tolkien group (which also includes Peter Kenny). Trevor and Christine had hoped to come on a tour with me the next day but I was called up for Jury Duty, of all things, and couldn't host the tour.

Jack & Alex, Luke & Sinead

Also joining us for the first time were Wellingtonians Andrew and Tessa. Andrew works with Alex, and is apparently quite the LOTR collector! (We'd love for you to bring some cool stuff with you next time, Andrew!)

Annabel, Franziska, Andrew & Tessa

Due to the auspicious date, Jack started the meeting with a "May the 4th be with you", and discussed the latest rumours and announcements regarding the new Star Wars VII casting, which of course now includes "our" very own Andy Serkis.

We went around the table to see if anyone else had any updates. We'd met Welly-mooters Kim & Warren in the morning at the "Wellington Better Home & Living Show 2014". They have successfully managed to set up their business creating and selling their new sculptable concrete "Pal Tiya". You can take one day workshop to learn how to use the materials and create your original sculpture. Their website is http://www.paltiya.com. A basic bag costs only $16(nz). Sign up for a class if you're keen, it's a lot of fun to use, and very addictive!

From the Brisbane group, Trevor announced a Medieval Festival

in Brisbane in October 2014. This will be a costumed event, if you are interested in attending. Check their website for more details

Then it was time for the main theme for the day - "When does Saruman go to the dark side?". A few had done some research - kudos goes to Kris, Franziska, and Sinead. 

Jack started the conversation by dividing the "dark side" into a beginning and a finality. Even at the final stages, Saruman could have returned to the good guys. Saruman didn’t kill Gandalf, or use his army of Orcs and Uruk Hai. Although he chose not to, he could still have put down the Palantir of Orthanc. It's not until he cuts the tree of Orthanc and Fangorn that he reaches rock-bottom, and irretrievably turns bad. The final chapter of Saruman (in the books, at least) of his ultimate doom in the Shire is an inevitable end, and in some ways represents an almost pitiful end to a great wizard, defeated by the smallest of the speaking peoples, hobbits.

In the Middle-earth mythos, his cutting down of the trees is a necessary step into darkness. In Tolkien’s worlds, trees are very important. In all of his stories, not just limited to the Middle-earth sagas, all of the Good Guys either live in trees, live under trees, in trees, with trees, tend to trees, are compared to trees, named after trees (eg, Legolas Greenleaf), symbolically represented by trees (eg, Aragorn, who is the White Tree), or, as in the case of the ents, ARE trees.

It can not be an accident of Tolkien that the most heroic person in LOTR (surely Samwise!) just "happens to be" a Gardener back in the Shire.

After Saruman destroys nature, it is nature that comes after him.

Kris brought up the characteristic differences between Saruman and Gandalf. Saruman counts arrogance as one of his character flaws. He knows Gandalf’s greatness, however he wants to be in charge of the world, and perhaps fears Gandalf's superiority. Gandalf knows something is wrong with Saruman, however he keeps showing his respect to Saruman or he is pretending not know Saruman’s power-seeking (but ultimately) self-destructive behaviours.

Franziska suggested that Saruman uses technology (eg, his Palantir) and machines, and although he has been connected with evil, he "merely" desires to have knowledge of the world and primarily his desire is to make the world better, however he uses wrong tools. Whereas true evil (like Melkor/Morgoth) seems more interested in destroying everything created by Eru, Saruman appears more interested in ruling it all. Perhaps a more optimistic viewpoint?

Sinead pointed that Saruman wasn’t given any rings and so he is jealous when he suspects that Gandalf has been given a ring of power. This especially since Saruman adores having power over other (including his fellow Istari).

Our discussion expanded to the characters of Gandalf, Saruman, Galadriel, and the nature of Mirkwood, Ents, and trees in general.

And then it was almost time to pack up again. A last roundup of plans for the end-of-year release of The Hobbit 3 (now subtitled "The Battle Of The Five Armies"). We are keen to have a movie marathon; Hobbit 1 and 2 before the Hobbit 3 is shown in December at Roxy Cinema. We will keep informed any other possibilities in this website.Jack will find further information about any upcoming functions.

Regarding the new venue - despite noisy conditions due to the high ceilings, we have decided to have next meeting at Roxy Cinema again. Next meeting is on 29 June at Roxy Cinema, 14:00pm, a theme to be decided and announced later.

Hope to see you all there!

  - Alex and Jack

Next moot one month away... May 4th 2014

The next Welly-moot (#3.2) will be held on May the 4th this year (Star Wars day!), and we'll be talking about that Sith Istari, Saruman the White. Specifically, when does Saruman go to the dark side? Is it when he captures Gandalf? Or when he first starts using the Palantir of Orthanc? Or does it happen much, much earlier - some say he gets jealous when Gandalf (his subordinate!) gets the Narya, the Ring of Fire from Cirdan the Shipwright.

What do you think? Come and join us for another afternoon of in-depth Tolkien based discussion (or George Lucas; sometimes we go offtrack a little).


NB - This meeting will be held at the Roxy Cinema in Mirama; NOT at the usual venue of the Embassy in Courteny Place.

The time will remain at 2:00pm. The meeting is expected to finish around 5:00pm.

Membership is still free (but bring money for coffee at the Roxy Cafe), all you have to do is attend one meeting!

  - Jack